Aug 15, 2011, Multiply, The English riots

The English Riots, an attempt to understand

Aug 15, '11 8:01 PM for everyone

The English Riots, an attempt to understand

I watched the riots in utter disbelief. For me it was a slow realization that this was not a few angry idiots causing mayhem, it was something bigger, more widespread and deeply sinister, the thought of living with all that anger and anarchy erupting on your doorstep is terrifying. Watching scenes of mob violence a couple of hundred miles south had a completely different emotional impact to watching the same scene taking place in some far away land. Suddenly the world was not such a safe place and things that happen ‘over there’ were happening just a little too close for comfort. It didn't spread north of the border, the riots were very much 'English' riots not British riots, but it was closer than I ever want to be to that level of violence.  I watched the news reports, I listened to people being interviewed, I read the newspapers, I watched a live debate on TV but any real understanding escaped me. To a certain extent, it still does. This is my attempt at piecing it together and trying, not very successfully, to make sense of it.

Build up to the riots.

Thursday August 4, 2011; At 6pm Mark Duggan was  a passenger in a mini cab when he texted his partner ‘’the feds are following me’’. An hour earlier he had asked her to cook a meal for him and she was expecting him home to eat it, fifteen minutes after the text message he was dead. He had been shot twice in the chest and once in the arm by an officer from the Metropolitan police firearms squad. Duggan was said to be a well known associate of gang members and known criminals. He had been under investigation by the police at the time of the shooting. Initially the IPCC ( Independent Police Complaints Commission) falsely told journalists that Duggan had fired at the police. They have subsequently retracted that statement and  said there is ‘’no evidence that the handgun found at the scene was fired". In the 11 days that have passed since the shooting the IPCC have failed to confirm or deny that the hand gun found at the scene was in the possession of Duggan at the time of the shooting. At the time of the shooting members of the public are said to have claimed it was an ‘execution style’ killing. The press reported that the police were fired on by Duggan. There is still no public record of exactly what happened at the time of the shooting. The only person who could say with accuracy and without bias would be the mini cab driver, who we are told remains too deeply shocked  to make a statement. On the night of Mr Duggan’s death the police sent specially-trained family liaison officers to meet two of his close relatives. Mr Duggans parents were not contacted by the police and found out about the death from a TV news report. An inquest into Mr Duggan's death was opened at North London Coroner's Court in High Barnet but then adjourned until 12 December. No one knows why we have to wait so long for answers.
Saturday August 6, 2011 - Duggan's fiancee, Semone Wilson and other family members had arrived at Tottenham Police station in Tottenham at around 5pm on Saturday 6th August, with community leaders, to mount a vigil and pursue answers in relation to the killing. Only hours earlier she had been with 13 other family members to identify Duggan's body and pay their respects. The delay of more than 36 hours between his death and their being allowed to see him has not been explained by the IPCC, despite questions from the Guardian. The protesters had gathered in Tottenham High Street and gradually made their way toward the police station where it is believed Semone Wilson was already attempting to contact a senior police officer. The intend was a peaceful demonstration, they wanted answers regarding Duggans death and they refuted police allegations that Duggan  was a ‘gangster’, claiming instead that he was a peaceful, non-violent family man and father of four. By 5pm on Saturday 200-300 people had joined the demonstration and were gathered outside the police station. At 8.30 that evening the violence began when stones and missiles were thrown and two police cars were set on fire. Some reports claim this was following a disagreement between one of the protesters and a member of the police.
Trying to collate the hundreds of media reports into one coherent story is virtually impossible because there are so many versions of the same story, all slightly different in detail and inference
Much of this information was taken from, BBC News http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14459516 , The  Sunday Telegraph 14th, The Guardian 7th & 8th August and The Evening Standard 9th August. 

The Riots

The following is a timeline of the riots as reported by
The BBC's Andy Moore.

Riots in London and around the country have seen widespread looting and buildings set alight. Dozens were left homeless after a night of riots on the streets of Tottenham on Saturday after the  peaceful demonstration over the shooting.  Here is a timeline of what happened.

Saturday 6th August

Volence continues through the night in Tottenham. Rioters attack banks and loot shops.
20:45 BST - The London Fire Brigade receives its first calls to attend 22:45 BST - As the violence continues, a double-decker bus is burnt out and more petrol bombs are thrown at police and buildings. Shops set alight in the area include an Aldi supermarket and a carpet shop.
Looting is reported throughout the night and some thieves take the opportunity to load up car boots and shopping trolleys with stolen goods. Vision Express, Boots, Argos and JD Sports are among the shops affected.
04:30 BST the following morning has dealt with 49 "primary" fires in the Tottenham area and received more than 250 emergency calls from the public.
No firefighters are injured in the disturbances but some are threatened by rioters, according to the London Fire and Emergency Planning Authority.

Sunday 7th August

Violence spreads to Enfield in Northeast London. Shortly after, missiles are thrown in Brixton, south London. Rioters loot stores and destroy vehicles.
Local MP David Lammy tells reporters the community has "had the heart ripped out of it" by "mindless, mindless people", many of whom, he says, had come from outside Tottenham to cause trouble.
Police condemn a wave of "copycat criminal activity" across London
12:00 BST - Fire crews have all the fires under control but are still damping down some burnt-out buildings. Scenes of crime officers begin investigating and gathering evidence.
Police say 26 police officers were injured in the riots and two remain in hospital. In total, 55 arrests have been made.
16:20 BST - Police announce the launch of Operation Withern to investigate the riots in Tottenham.
18:28 BST - Police are called to High Street Enfield after reports shop windows are being smashed. A police vehicle is damaged.
18:30 BST - Three police officers are injured after intervening in an altercation in Brixton, south London. Missiles are thrown.
19:45 BST - Around 100 hooded youths gather outside Enfield Police Station.
21:30 BST -The Guardian newspaper quotes a source as saying a bullet found in a police radio after Mr Duggan's death was police issue.
22:00 BST - More reports of shop windows being smashed in Enfield. Riot police and mounted police patrol the streets.
22:30 BST - Reports on Twitter of a police presence at Oxford Circus in London's West End. Police later say a mob of around 50 people damaged property in the area.

Monday 8th August

Police say they are dealing with "copycat criminality" across London.
-- Violence spreads to Hackney, northeast London and Clapham, an upmarket area in southwest London. Rioting follows in Ealing in the west and Woolwich in the east. London Mayor Boris Johnson says he will cut short his holiday and return to the capital.
-- Looting and violence spread to Britain's second biggest city Birmingham. Large fires break out in Croydon, south London.
00:45 BST - Six fire engines and 30 firefighters are despatched to a blaze at a Foot Locker store on Brixton Road, after it is set alight.
Three officers are injured after being hit by a vehicle in Chingford Mount, Waltham Forest. The officers had been making arrests after a shop was looted.
Police say a police vehicle windscreen was smashed during a disturbance in Islington and a Tesco store in Ponders End has been vandalised and looted.
02:20 BST - Scotland Yard says police are responding to copycat criminal activity across London. In a statement it says "small and mobile groups" of looters have been have been targeting areas of north, east and south London.
Police say gangs of youths are continuing to attack officers and shops are being targeted in Waltham Forest.
In Enfield, the High Street remains cordoned off after disorder in the area was contained. The situation in Walthamstow is said to be under control after some 30 youths - many in masks - vandalised and looted shops there.
02:38 BST - The London Fire Brigade says firefighters have been called to a number of fires as a direct result of disturbances in the Enfield, Brixton and Walthamstow areas. Six fire engines and 30 firefighters are fighting a blaze at a shop on Brixton road.
06:15 BST - The Metropolitan Police say a further 100 arrests have been made and 16 people charged in relation to disturbances overnight on Sunday.
17:19 BST - Skirmishes break out between police and groups of young people in Hackney. The trouble reportedly started when a man was stopped and searched by police, but nothing was found.
17:39 BST - Spokesman for Mayor of London Boris Johnson says he is interrupting his family holiday to return to the capital to deal with the situation.
18:45 BST - Video footage from Lewisham, south London, shows a fire burning in a street where at least one vehicle has been set ablaze.
18:42 BST - Transport for London says a bus has been set on fire in Peckham, south-east London.
20:07 BST - West Midlands Police say some shop windows have been smashed in various locations, with property stolen.
20:58 BST - Aerial footage is now showing several fires burning in Croydon, south London.
21:33 BST - The Prime Minister is to cut short his holiday because the situation has "demonstrably worsened", it is reported.
21:50 BST - A BBC correspondent reports seeing a fire burning in Clapham High Street but he can't see any police besides a police roadblock further up the road.
22:42 BST - Essex and Suffolk Police confirm they have sent officers to London to assist Metropolitan Police colleagues.
23:05 BST - A BBC producer reports that phone shops are being looted in Woolwich High Street. He says there are several hundred youths involved, but there are no police around. There is also a burnt-out police car.
23:27 BST - Rioting is taking place in Ealing, west London, where the windows of a Tesco supermarket have been put out, a car is on fire and rubbish is strewn in public areas. There is also a fire in Haven Green park, opposite Ealing Broadway Tube.
23:30 BST - About 40 vehicles were damaged in a night of violence in Nottingham described by one senior officer as "motivated" by the London riots. Most of the incidents happened in the St Ann's area, but police foiled an attempt to break into the Victoria Centre in the city centre. The trouble lasted about three hours.
23:49 BST - Labour leader Ed Miliband is returning early from his holiday in Devon because of the riots, it is reported. He is due back in London on Tuesday morning.

Tuesday 9th August

Rioting continues through the night in several parts of the capital. A police station is set alight in Birmingham and officers are called to a number of incidents in the northwest port city of Liverpool.
Cameron condemns the disorder as "criminality pure and simple." He says there will be 16,000 police on the streets of the capital.
-- Cameron visits Croydon to see the damage from the previous night's violence. Johnson visits Clapham to thank volunteers for cleaning up.
-- In Salford, Greater Manchester, rioters throw bricks at police and set fire to buildings. A police station is firebombed by 30 to 40 males in Nottingham. Cars are burned and stores looted in West Bromwich and Wolverhampton in central England.
Youths were involved in rioting in the centre of Manchester and in Salford
00:45 BST - West Midlands Police confirm that a police station in Holyhead Road in Handsworth, Birmingham, is on fire
00:59 BST - Merseyside Police confirm they are dealing with a number of incidents in South Liverpool, including cars being set alight.
01:05 BST - BBC staff member reports hundreds of youths ransacking a Panasonic store in West Ealing - no sign of police.
01:21 BST - The Metropolitan Police issue on their current operations across London. It includes the following bulletins - Hackney: 250-300 people gathered in Pembury Estate, setting alight cars and throwing petrol bombs. Businesses in Mare Street were looted and officers contained the situation. Three officers injured but their condition is not believed to be serious. Newham: Looting in Stratford High Street. Lewisham: Roaming groups of youths were involved in disorder. Bethnal Green: More than 100 people looted a Tesco supermarket. Two officers were injured. Croydon: Fires burning at a number of premises, including a very large blaze at a sofa factory.
03:06 BST - London Fire Brigade lists the major blazes is it fighting in the capital: 1. Timber yard fire ongoing in East Ham on Plashet Grove. Four fire engines and 20 firefighters on site. 2. Shopping centre and offices of four floors fire on Woolwich New Road. Whole of the ground floor is alight. 20 firefighters attending. 3. The fire on Lavender Hill now has eight fire engines and 40 firefighters at the scene. Most of the ground floor and part of first floor alight. 4. 40 firefighters at a fire in a warehouse on Solar Way in Enfield.
09:43 BST - London Fire Brigade says it faced its busiest night in recent history. The brigade's 999 control centre answered 2,169 calls between 18:00 BST on Monday and 07:19 BST on Tuesday. This is around 15 times the normal rate of calls the brigade would expect on an average day.
09:55 BST - The Football Association confirms that England's friendly against Holland at Wembley tomorrow has been called off because of the rioting in London.
11:06 BST - David Cameron makes his first statement outside Number 10 after cutting short his holiday to return to London. He announces a massive increase in police numbers and the recall of Parliament.
14:15 BST - Prime Minister David Cameron visits Croydon to view the devastation from Monday's violence and looting.
14:45 BST - London Mayor Boris Johnson visits Clapham Junction to thank volunteers for clearning up the damage and apologise to those who have lost their businesses. He is heckled by angry residents who say there were inadequate police on the streets.
15:24 BST - Scotland Yard says 525 people have been arrested in relation to the riots. Ninety-nine people have been charged so far - of those 63 face burglary charges.
17:29 BST - The Independent Police Complaints commission says ballistic test results show no evidence that a hangun found at the scene of the fatal police shooting of Mark Duggan had been fired.
17:46 BST - Reports of rocks and stones being hurled at police vans by gangs of youths in Salford, Manchester.
19:28 BST - Manchester police appeal for calm following a number of attacks by rioters on shops in Manchester city centre and Salford. There are also reports of trouble in Birmingham and West Bromwich where there have been confrontations between police and gangs of youths.
22:36 BST - A police station in Nottingham is firebombed by a group of rioters. In the Bootle area of Merseyside a man is arrested on suspicion of vehicle theft after allegedly using a dumper truck to break into a Post Office.

Wednesday 10th August

In Birmingham, police launch a murder inquiry after three Muslim men are killed in a hit and run car incident. One person is arrested.
-- "We will not allow a culture of fear to exist on our streets." "We needed a fight back and a fight back is under way," Cameron says after a meeting of the government's COBRA crisis planning group.
-- A surge in police numbers and heavy rain in many places help to calm streets in London, although missiles are thrown at police in Eltham in south London.
Courts across the country stay open through the night to deal with cases
04:00 BST - Avon and Somerset Police say four people have been arrested following disorder in Bristol city centre.
05:37 BST - A murder investivation is launched in Birmingham after two men are killed and one critically injured in a hit and run incident. The third man later died in hospital. It is not known if the deaths were linked to the rioting.
09:13 BST - A 21-year-old man is arrested on suspicion of starting a fire at the House of Reeves furniture store in Croydon - destroyed during Monday night's rioting in London.
11:15 BST - Prime Minister David Cameron makes a statement from Downing Street, paying tribute to police and the emergency services. He warns that more people will be arrested and charged. He said: "We will not allow a culture of fear to exist on our streets." Mr Cameron also said there were contingency plans for water cannon to be used at 24 hours' notice.
13:43 BST - Ministry of Justice statement says there are enough prison places for all those sentenced to custody. The Met Police release a second tranches of images of people they would like to speak to about the recent disorder. Greater Manchester Police release a batch of CCTV images of suspects wanted in connection with the rioting and looting.
14:44 BST - Scotland's First Minister, Alex Salmond, says 250 police officers have been dispatched from Scotland to the Midlands and the north of England to help combat the rioting.
16:31 BST - The Association of Chief Police Officers - which is co-ordinating the transfer of police officers, dogs, horses and other riot equipment - says six forces have requested assistance tonight. They are: Avon and Somerset, Gloucestershire, Greater Manchester Police, Metropolitan Police, Nottinghamshire and West Midlands. Fifty-one forces across the UK are helping supply the extra officers and equipment.
17:59 BST: - In London, the number of people arrested in connection with violence, disorder and looting rises to 805, with 251 charged, Scotland Yard says.
18 :19 BST:- Greater Manchester Police's twitter feed confirms that two men have been sentenced to 10 weeks and 16 weeks over rioting.
19:36 BST - Tariq Jahan, whose 21-year-old son, Haroon, died after he was run over by a car in Birmingham, has called for people not to resort to vigilantism against rioters and asked his community to ''stand united".
21:51 BST - Scotland Yard has named the 26-year-old man who died after being found shot in a car during riots in Croydon as Trevor Ellis, of Brixton Hill.
22:03 BST - In a statement, West Midlands Police say the situation across the area is calm at the moment as 1,000 officers parade the streets.
23:55 BST - Magistrates courts in London, Solihull and Manchester among others stay open through the night to fast track those already in custody for disorder related offences.

Thursday 11 August

Courts in several cities, including in London, Solihull and Manchester, work through the night to deal with those arrested.
-- Parliament is recalled and Cameron says he will keep a higher police presence of 16,000 officers on London streets through the weekend and will give police powers to demand the removal of face masks or other coverings if their wearers are suspected of crime.
-- Cameron tells parliament police tactics had failed at the start of the rioting. The Association of Chief Police Officers head, Hugh Orde, says "The fact that politicians chose to come back is an irrelevance in terms of the tactics that were by then developing."
-- A Premier League match between Tottenham and Everton at White Hart Lane, to be played on August 13, is postponed, amid fears of further unrest.
-- Richard Mannington Bowes, who was injured an attack in Ealing on August 8, becomes the fifth person to die because of the riots. A 22-year-old man has been arrested.
01:50 BST - A candle-lit vigil held in Birmingham at the spot where three men were killed on Wednesday night when they were hit by a car passes off peacefully. About 250 people took part. Police have been given more time to question a 32-year-old man on suspicion of murder
06:27 BST - The Metropolitan Police say the total number of arrests in London is now 888 in connection with the rioting and looting - and of those, 371 have been charged. London and other cities affected by the recent rioting have remained largely calm overnight.
10:00 BST - MPs have been recalled from their summer break for an emergency debate on the riots.
10:57 BST - Housing minister Grant Shapps says 100 families have been made homeless following the disturbances. He says he is looking at measures to prevent rioters from being given social housing.
11:15 BST - The Premier League match between Tottenham and Everton at White Hart Lane, scheduled for this weekend has been postponed, amid fears of further unrest.
11:30 BST - Prime Minister David Cameron makes a statement to MPs in which he admits there are questions to be answered over the shooting of Mark Duggan in Tottenham last week. He calls the rioting "criminality, pure and simple" and says the courts will continue sitting for as long as necessary to deal with the extra cases. He says police will be given powers to force people to remove masks and scarves covering their faces where there are reasonable grounds to believe they are planning criminal activity. Mr Cameron also announces a £10m recovery scheme to make areas safe and clean again.
11:55 BST - Labour leader Ed Miliband calls for an inquiry to look at the deeper causes of the "wanton vandalism and looting". He says the riots have been a "stark reminder" of the need for police on the streets and he calls on the government to rethink cuts in police spending.
17:02 BST - MPs are continuing their debate in the Commons - it has now been extended until 20:00 to ensure everyone gets their say.

August 12th

Steve Kavanagh, deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, says 16,000 officers will remain on duty in the capital on August 13.
-- The Metropolitan Police say they have arrested 1,051 people in connection with the violence and looting around London - 591 people have been charged. West Midlands police have made 467 arrests since the violence began with around 100 being charged.

The Aftermath of the Riots

The Government has responded by promising to be ‘tough on crime’, they have promised to ensure those charged with related offences go through the court system as quickly as possible and face heavy penalties for their involvement. They are also looking at ways to withdraw benefits and evict people who are housed in social housing.
So far the Government has not responded positively to those who point to social deprivation, inequality, police victimization of the black community and lack of opportunity as underlying causes of the riots. They have recognized the growing problem of gang culture in inner cities but failed to ask why gang culture continues to grow.
Their promise to be ‘tough on crime’ is being kept with ruthless efficiency,  what we are actually seeing is prison sentencing for people who have been given a couple of items of looted clothing, or a couple of stolen DVDs.
But ‘tough on crime’ has also led to some of the most violent criminals being apprehended; hopefully they will be processed by the courts quickly and efficiently.
Some cases make very strange reading; like the case of Ellese Elliot, who graduated with a first class Degree in Philosophy from Greenwich University, who has been offered a place on a post grad MSc course in the philosophy of mental disorder, who is very vocal in her campaign to save her Universities threatened philosophy course and who currently writes for the socialist newspapers Solidarity and Workers liberty. Ellese was accused of handling two mobile phones that were stolen. She appeared in court and pleaded not guilty. Another strange case was the young mother of two who slept through the riots only to be offered a new pair of shorts from a friend the following day. She was found guilty of handling stolen goods and sentenced to six months in prison. Some of this ‘tough on crime’ begins to feel more like revenge than justice. I’m more than happy to see the violent thugs who killed, maimed, burnt, looted and destroyed communities dealt with severely, but I’m beginning to wonder if the courts are actually dealing with the right people.
As for the Governments proposal to withdraw benefits from those convicted of riot related crime, I don’t see how that can work. For a start, any one who goes to prison loses all benefits anyway, so no need to find new ways to take it from them; you can’t take the same thing twice from any one no matter how angry you are with them. If the proposal is to withdraw benefits from those convicted of crime but not sentenced to prison, I don’t see how that will work either. If a convicted person loses his/her benefit in addition to a court imposed punishment he/she will be punished twice but a person not on benefit will only be punished once. And that’s without going into the damaging effects of pushing poor people ( and more importantly their wife and kids) into the kind of poverty that’s not known in this country, poverty where there is nothing, no money, no food, no rent and no hope.
The one proposal that really made me angry was the proposal to evict people convicted of riot related crime from their council houses (social housing). I listened to Mr Cameron claim that ‘social housing is subsidized’ and no one should live in ‘subsidized housing’ if they (or any one living with them) were involved in the riots. Another flawed proposal. Social housing is not subsidized, most social housing is now owned by housing associations that are unsubsidized, non-profit making organizations, required by law to break even at the end of every financial year. Social housing still owned by local authorities is also required to break even at the end of each financial year.The reason most people assume social housing is subsidized is because no one makes a profit from it which makes it much cheaper to rent than comparable houses in the private sector. Private landlords either have huge mortgages to pay (making a nice profit for the banks) and/or they own rental properties as a business and use the profit as income. The cost of social housing is the ‘real’ cost of housing without costing in the ‘profit margins’. I’m pretty sure Mr Cameron knows this, he just choose to go along with a commonly held (false) belief. And even if it were subsidized, making families homeless doesn’t help any one, especially the children of the rioters. Plus of course using eviction as an added punishment would only be just if it could be used against every one, which it couldn’t, it would be reserved for ‘social housing’ tenants who are of course the poorer members of society.
We have watched gangs of masked thugs methodically strip shops and businesses of stock, we have seen people grabbing as much as they can as quickly as they can and feeling no remorse.  That’s not surprising, we live in a society that values wealth and material possession over and above every thing else, we are positively encouraged to live beyond our means and constantly told that a mans worth is measured by his wealth. Many of these people live in run down estates with no opportunity and no hope, but they live their lives within sight of the richest people in the country. From their run down homes they are with in walking distance of Canary Warf. Their loyalties are with their gangs, not with the rest of society and that is very dangerous for the rest of us.

When I watched the riots erupt on our televisions I was as angry/ frightened/ confused etc as the next person. I thought what every one else was thinking no excuses, no reasons, just a bunch of violent, criminal thugs etc. I still think that, after what we saw there is no justification.
But if our politicians don’t start to listen to what these people are saying no amount of ‘tough on crime’, will make this problem of ours go away.

I think, they will ignore this at their peril.











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Tags: politics, riots, political, england

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edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 29, '11, edited on Aug 29, '11 smudge77 said Loretta - what kind of 'ineqalities' are you thinking of - and what could the government [misisters/M.P.'s] do about them? Inequalities. I hardly know where to begin. In some areas, Tottingham for instance where the riots began, there are very few jobs and those jobs that are available attract almost 100 applicants each. The statistics for the UK in general make poor reading, the top 10% of population earn over 30% of income and the poorest 10% of population earn less that 1% of income. The gap between earned income is now bigger than at any time in our history and the hap is widening. I could go on…………..no need read it yourself here http://www.poverty.org.uk/09/index.shtml consider this 01% population own 21% of wealth 05% population own 40% of wealth 10% population own 53% of wealth 25% population own 72% of wealth 50% population own 07% of wealth. THE POOREST 50% OF POPULATION SHARE ONLY 7% OF THE WEALTH AND IT’S THOSE 50% OF POPULATION WHO OWN ONLY 7% OF THE WEALTH WHO ARE BEING TARGETED BY THE MASSIVE PUBLIC SPENDING CUTS. Then there are health inequalities http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/health.htm overall the inequalities in education seems to be getting better, but there are still large inequalities between the different social groups http://www.poverty.org.uk/summary/education.htm the list is endless, most of my statistics are from the governments own web site. With reference specifically to Tottingham, this is all compounded by the increase in single families parent and a corresponding increase in gang culture plus the whole area is a area of social deprivation a but is literally a stones throw away from Canary Warf, the wealthiest area of the country. Talk about rubbing their noses in it. what can they do? .............their job, govern the country in a fair and just way and make our society a fairer and more equal place to be.

delete reply smudge77 wrote on Aug 29, '11 anyfink said I often wonder how the youth of today would cope with the old style computer games where one would have to wait for the game to load and often have to reload because of a crash. I wonder how many computers would be smashed up in anger. sadly I can see my [21 yr old] son having that response - he gets frustrated on his computer games now YET, he is extremely patient with listening to his younger sister and very good and patient with kids Loretta - what kind of 'ineqalities' are you thinking of - and what could the government [misisters/M.P.'s] do about them? are they actually financial, material inequalities - or differences in family make-up or how communities are cared for, looked after, provided for, or what? I am trying to imagine what you might mean

delete reply anyfink wrote on Aug 29, '11 smudge77 said that is 2 minutes away from where I lived till I was 10, round the corner from my old primary school, and where my elderly mom still goes to church...I have a pic of that same spot [outside the Barton's Arms] during WW2 with a great big bomb crater in the road I really don't feel that it is all down to the government to solve this problem...it's down to all of us... the government is not our Parent and neither can they do miracles with individuals. yes, some young people are very angry - and many of them aren't sure why, and some of them joined in as they want to 'belong' to something that seems exciting.. most of them want what they see rich people on TV and film have, and sports heroes...they want it to come easy to them..the designer trainers etc.. I wish they would realise that they are extremely rich compared to young people/kids in huge parts of the world... some do - and they go on to make a difference...but they, maybe, had good role models, either in parents or others that are in their communities, or the rare good role model who is a celebrity I like your response very much because it makes so much sense to me. I often wonder how the youth of today would cope with the old style computer games where one would have to wait for the game to load and often have to reload because of a crash. I wonder how many computers would be smashed up in anger.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 29, '11 smudge77 said I wish they would realise that they are extremely rich compared to young people/kids in huge parts of the world... actually..............in part I tend to agree. I work in a school, on the whole the kids are great but there are the few I usually describe as feral kids. In utter exasperation I have been known to say... ''these kids are so lucky, there are kids in the world who walk 5 miles to a school to sit on a dirt floor with no equipment and then go on to become doctors'', and these kids have every opportunity and throw it back in our faces'. . So yes, I know where you are coming from. But I also think there is so much inequality in our society, such a lack of opportunity and a feeling of alienation and utter hopelessness that individuals can't possibly make things better without government intervention and a change in the way our society operates. I do not for one second defend violence committed by any one against any one, but i do some times see some of the reasons why it happens.

delete reply smudge77 wrote on Aug 29, '11 anyfink said The police were shot at during the riots, see below, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2028208/Birmingham-riots-Looting-yobs-SHOT-police-helicopter.html?ITO=1490 that is 2 minutes away from where I lived till I was 10, round the corner from my old primary school, and where my elderly mom still goes to church...I have a pic of that same spot [outside the Barton's Arms] during WW2 with a great big bomb crater in the road I really don't feel that it is all down to the government to solve this problem...it's down to all of us... the government is not our Parent and neither can they do miracles with individuals. yes, some young people are very angry - and many of them aren't sure why, and some of them joined in as they want to 'belong' to something that seems exciting.. most of them want what they see rich people on TV and film have, and sports heroes...they want it to come easy to them..the designer trainers etc.. I wish they would realise that they are extremely rich compared to young people/kids in huge parts of the world... some do - and they go on to make a difference...but they, maybe, had good role models, either in parents or others that are in their communities, or the rare good role model who is a celebrity

delete reply anyfink wrote on Aug 21, '11 The police were shot at during the riots, see below, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2028208/Birmingham-riots-Looting-yobs-SHOT-police-helicopter.html?ITO=1490

delete reply anyfink wrote on Aug 17, '11 forgetmenot525 said Thanks for your comments. As time goes on and the story unfolds it becomes more and more weird. If you can make any sense of any of it you're doing better than me. I just come away with an uneasy feeling that there is a whole lot of genuine anger and resentment at the inequalities, lack of opportunities etc but they go hand in hand with a culture, a code of behaviour and way of thinking I simply don't understand. I'm sure I would be labeled one of those 'bleeding hearts' or something similar, which isn't necessarily true, I just believe we need to understand why people choose to live on the fringes of society and what can be done to encourage them away from that destructive lifestyle. There is an 'us and them' mentality and its a dangerous way to live. I don't think punishment works as a deterrent, the only way to get people to change is to find a way to make them want to change. Considering the riots were supposed to be over the death of Duggan by the police one would have imagined that all the anger would have been directed at the police and all the deaths caused hy the rioters would have been of police personnel but this is certainly not the case here because the majority of the deaths were of three young men attempting to defend their community from rioters/looters. This has turned the masses against the looters/rioters and most of the people I have spoken to about what they say should have been done have stated that the army should have been brought in immediately and shot the rioters/looters. As for Duggan, if he was supposed to be marrying his partner, the mother of most of his children, its known in the drugs game that you never stash with your full time partner. You always stash with a safe house and keep them sweet. Either Duggan was a complete idiot or he was using his full time partner and intended to shack up with another of his partners. The police knew he was carrying a gun and the only people who could have known he was carrying it would have been the place where he got it. He was grassed up by his armourer, that much is obvious. Reason, gang rivalry? Most common one I know of.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 17, '11 anyfink said Hmm, I love the bit where he texted his partner saying "the fed are following me", because the cab was booked by one of his other preganant partners, Precious Douaihy, http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3754215/Mark-Duggan-cheated-on-fiance-with-two-other-women.html not this one, who is in bigtime trouble, http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3756502/Shot-Mark-Duggans-fiance-Semone-Wilson-held-in-drugs-raid.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News Thanks for your comments. As time goes on and the story unfolds it becomes more and more weird. If you can make any sense of any of it you're doing better than me. I just come away with an uneasy feeling that there is a whole lot of genuine anger and resentment at the inequalities, lack of opportunities etc but they go hand in hand with a culture, a code of behaviour and way of thinking I simply don't understand. I'm sure I would be labeled one of those 'bleeding hearts' or something similar, which isn't necessarily true, I just believe we need to understand why people choose to live on the fringes of society and what can be done to encourage them away from that destructive lifestyle. There is an 'us and them' mentality and its a dangerous way to live. I don't think punishment works as a deterrent, the only way to get people to change is to find a way to make them want to change.

delete reply acousticeagle wrote on Aug 17, '11 forgetmenot525 said we have seen people grabbing as much as they can as quickly as they can and feeling no remorse. One time a friend who owned a bookshop was lamenting to me that a valuable book had been stolen and that she thought she knew who that man was because he'd been hovering in that area of her shop. I asked her the reason why she thought people could steal without remorse. She replied to the effect that the people that did it merely objectified the people that 'have' [what they want]. It's like 'us' and 'them' mentality. She added that she thought an attitude along with that was "I'll show them!" by stealing, so it's resentment too; resentment towards the 'haves'. I read a very good article dealing with the psychology behind these race riots last weekend in the Sunday paper. One of the main causes, the writer believed (and I would agree) is the amount of women raising fatherless children, esp. boys with no role model around. What is more, these women who live on welfare seem to be encouraged to do this ie., through benefits/subsidies. We're seeing what happens with a great number of these fatherless boys. It's a moden day tragedy.

delete reply anyfink wrote on Aug 17, '11 Hmm, I love the bit where he texted his partner saying "the fed are following me", because the cab was booked by one of his other preganant partners, Precious Douaihy, http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3754215/Mark-Duggan-cheated-on-fiance-with-two-other-women.html not this one, who is in bigtime trouble, http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3756502/Shot-Mark-Duggans-fiance-Semone-Wilson-held-in-drugs-raid.html?OTC-RSS&ATTR=News

delete reply brendainmad wrote on Aug 16, '11 Forgive me but I have to add a light note here. I think it was Tracy who posted a video of a riot in Edinburgh (and I thought of you). In the video you see a lone woman who pushes over a rubbish bin. Seriously though, we are lucky, for now anyway, that this has been an 'English' thing. I fear, however, that in the not too distant future this can and most likely will happen in other places. Thanks for a well-prepared post, Loretta.

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Aug 16, '11 I have not listened to the videos, but I am aware of some "flash mob" protests in San Francisco, California. But for the most part, protests in the US for the past 2 years have been Right-leaning: mostly white, middle-aged or younger people protesting what they see as higher taxes and more government. They want government services to stop (presumably excluding the ones they themselves receive). They say they feel hopeless and threatened by Big Government, ironically living in a country where government is very small. As I understand the English protests, they are Left-leaning, wanting the government to do more in the way of supporting them as they deal with fewer jobs and a disappearing social safety net. I don't know why the poor in our country who have had their support cut year after year are not rioting. Periodically people demonstrate (I hate the word riot although in some cases it is fitting) but the kind of unrest seen in the UK is not seen in the US, at least not yet.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 15, '11 and here's part 2

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 15, '11 here's one very angry man

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 15, '11, edited on Aug 15, '11 bennett1 said agree with Frank that nothing has been This is echoed in some of the reports I have read, there are some who claim the police deliberately allowed the burning and looting to escalate because there would be a backlash that would result in greater police powers. Some are claiming that these riots played into the hands of the Government because they have made right wing policies, cutting benefits, harsher sentencing etc, more acceptable to the public. Some are even saying that the peaceful demonstration was deliberately hijacked by right wing groups to increase racial tension and division in the community.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Aug 15, '11 veryfrank said They don't understand the common classes, perhaps can't understand the common classes. This a real problem, I have listened to some of these young people who live on the fringes of society being interviewed. I find it difficult to relate to them and I suspect the likes of Cameron will find it impossible. They almost speak a different language, its difficult to listen without being judgmental, when asked why they did it they say 'because we can', its this response that so enrages the politicians. The politicians think the answer is to make life so difficult that either they can't commit crime , or are so afraid of the consequences they won't. No one seems to understand the response should be' but why do you want to?', because for as long as they want to do these things they will find a way, the more severe the punishment the more the resentment and desire to inflict damage on the rest of us will be. We need to understand what motivates them and address that motivation.

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Aug 15, '11 This is an interesting dilemma. As Frank says, there were similar riots 40 years ago and, to a lesser extent, 15 or so years ago in Los Angeles after the acquittal of white police officers in the brutal beating of a black man. But lately there has been no unrest over here - not like England endured. Perhaps because in this country the rightwing media has carefully and deliberately focused the distress and hatred of the people on a black President and other scapegoats: hispanic workers, people on welfare, social programs. So we had large "Tea Party" rallies full of hatred and vitriol but "peaceful". I agree with Frank that nothing has been "fixed", but I think that the common classes in the US are all too well understood by those who would exploit them. Smoke and mirrors: look at the black Kenyan president, look at the illegal Mexican worker, look at the SOCIALISTS who are coming to TAX you. In that way the rich were able to harness the hopelessness of an entire class of people, use them and rob them at the same time. Maybe your poor people are smarter, I don't know.

delete reply veryfrank wrote on Aug 15, '11 forgetmenot525 said When I watched the riots erupt on our televisions I was as angry/ frightened/ confused etc as the next person. I thought what every one else was thinking no excuses, no reasons, just a bunch of violent, criminal thugs etc. I still think that, after what we saw there is no justification. But if our politicians don’t start to listen to what these people are saying no amount of ‘tough on crime’, will make this problem of ours go away. I think, they will ignore this at their peril. Over 40 years ago we were living in the middle of similar riots and fires when Martin Luther King, Jr and Robert Kennedy were assassinated. At the time, I thought much the same as you describe here. The politicians and law enforcement didn't listen, they didn't learn, but they did rationalized away much of it. Now every time there is an issue that causes civil unrest, most people just hope that those riots will not be repeated. Nothing has been 'fixed', just relegated to history. Does anyone believe that politicians will/can really learn and find a solution to problems with the human condition? They don't understand the common classes, perhaps can't understand the common classes.