I'm still sorting through all my old Multiply posts, saving this and deleting and deciding what to post and what not to post. I've just come across something I'd forgotten about, I once asked the question ''Does the Internet really exist'', I've got no idea why i asked the question or exactly where my head was at that day, and I'm still not sure I understand the answer. I thought this one was worth re-posting just our of curiosity.

Just had am extraordinarily weird conversation about the nature of the Internet with my daughter. Apparently the nature of networks is part of a course she is studying and this bought us to the subject of the Internet in general and what, exactly, the Internet actually is. By which I mean; does the Internet actually exist, and if it does, where exactly it is and what form does it take. If something exists in strictly empirical terms it is usual to expect the ‘thing’ in question to have form and to be accessible to and detectable by our senses. The Internet very obviously doesn’t fall into this category. My computer, which does exist in these terms, can be used to show images and hear sounds from the Internet, but it’s not the Internet itself, it’s a computer, a machine which is easily understood as being part of the ‘real’ and empirically validated world.
Which led us to ask; ‘’if the Internet actually exists, and if it doesn’t exist in empirical form, what category of existence does the Internet fall into and how is it’s existence defined’’?
‘’And if it does exist in empirical terms how does this definition work’’??
I can’t be the only person to have thought of this, there must be some clever philosophical thinker out there who has defined the existence of the Internet and I would really like to know how this definition works.
These questions seem important to me, if things are now accepted as having ‘being’ without being subject to empirical scrutiny, that opens up a whole lot of space for a whole lot of debate about the definition of existence. This website said  ''frequently asked questions about the internet'' but it didn't answer my question.

http://emeagwali.com/history/internet/

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 28, '10 realitychecks said LOL good one! :-) lol

delete reply realitychecks wrote on Mar 28, '10 LOL good one!

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 28, '10 :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 28, '10 nemo4sun said north korea :) thats what I call a reality check Nemo :-))

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 28, '10 realitychecks said if you were to isolate all the people then what would you have? north korea :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 28, '10 stillwandering said opens up a whole lot of space for a whole lot of debate about the definition of existence. Quite ;) I like your thinking................and tend to agree

delete reply stillwandering wrote on Mar 28, '10, edited on Mar 28, '10 What is a book, for that matter ~ it's more than the pages of paper bound together with ink symbols on it, it communicates the story, but it isn't The Story in itself

delete reply stillwandering wrote on Mar 28, '10 opens up a whole lot of space for a whole lot of debate about the definition of existence. Quite ;)

delete reply stillwandering wrote on Mar 28, '10 Internet to me is an outer reflection of inner reality, the Inner Net, the state of being constantly connected and in communication, and it's no accident that the internet becomes faster and more all inlcusive as our awareness of all the inner connections and continual communication widens. The internet reflects what we've been doing all along but weren't aware of ~ communicating with all, continually, and there is a growing awareness that "reality" and consciousness are way more than what you can see in the physical.

delete reply realitychecks wrote on Mar 27, '10 the internet is millions of computers all wired together, communicating with one another. the network alone without the computers would be nothing, just a jumble of wiring basically. the computers without the network of wiring would all just be individual computers, isolated from one another. how useful is that? this world makes an interesting metaphor. the world is made up of people. take away the people and what world is it? it isn't. if you were to isolate all the people then what would you have? so much for that. put them all together and you have The World. maybe it would make sense if a friend who used the Internet before html and the www and al gore would reminisce about how it all was. totally different animal now.

delete reply realitychecks wrote on Mar 27, '10 it's a series of tubes twisted tangled up tubes massive, massive tubes!!! http://realitychecks.multiply.com/music/item/1/

delete reply initiativestain wrote on Mar 27, '10 This has much to be thought about within what you have wrote, I just logged on and I have to come back and think about this - tremendous area that you came up with. Very thought provoking!

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Mar 27, '10 I don't know what to add, except the definition of empirical: 1 : originating in or based on observation or experience 2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory 3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment So the existence of the internet can be easily be verified by your senses as opposed to having someone just tell you there is something called the internet and you take it on their word or by inductive/deductive reasoning.

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 wouldn't that be transcendental masturbation? lol :)

delete reply flintville wrote on Mar 27, '10 tesstruhartz said Maybe it is all fake and we are talking to ourselves Credit where credit is due, you made me laugh out loud! XOXO me

delete reply flintville wrote on Mar 27, '10 Almost a transcendental post... Animal. Vegetable. Mineral. Which leads me to rock, paper, scissors. hehehe XOXO me

delete reply welshdoug wrote on Mar 27, '10 This stuff is way over my head. Why don't you and your daughter talk about bunny rabbits? Basically if the internet doesn't exist, what do I tell my Wife I've been looking at for the past few years?

delete reply agnes128 wrote on Mar 27, '10 Yes, all this almost intangible stuff is stored somewhere, using HUGE amount of energy. Each one of our clicks produces heat. More energy is used to cool the servers. Guess in a close future, we-all will be taxed on the number of clicks ;-D Sorry to spoil the fun, I think in fact I like better the ethereal explanation and wil stick to it from now on ;-D

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 forgetmenot525 said now you've confused me again. So... the energy used to transmit the 'image' on the internet is dispersed and changes, but the 'image' that is being transmitted does not change and is around for ever even if and when there is no means of recovering this 'image'. Which brings me back to infinity, if every thing the internet sends remains unchanged and is 'out there somewhere', the internet is potentially infinite which is not something previously part of our experience. i still contend that sooner or later the waves break down they do travel on past the point of reception like the people behind you seeing my flashlight in my example plus the lifetime of certain waves is strong but sooner or later they do brake down like frank said about seeing the stars true we can see the light but not the warmth as from our star the sun and there is to much to corrupt them in the world :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 brendainmad said love the definition of the Internet from the IT Crowd, meaning a black box kept on top of Big Ben. However, I think you have more logical explanations here. logical or not I rather like this IT crowd :-)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 veryfrank said There is a distinction between the energy to transmit an image and the resultant image, they are two different things. now you've confused me again. So... the energy used to transmit the 'image' on the internet is dispersed and changes, but the 'image' that is being transmitted does not change and is around for ever even if and when there is no means of recovering this 'image'. Which brings me back to infinity, if every thing the internet sends remains unchanged and is 'out there somewhere', the internet is potentially infinite which is not something previously part of our experience.

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 forgetmenot525 said ahhhhh big sigh...............ok i'm beginning to get the mechanics of it all, but I have to admit there are still aspects of the internet that to me, break with previously understood definitions of 'reality', or existence or similar things. But thank you people for your input :-) you are welcome this has been a most fun conversation :)

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 brendainmad said I love the definition of the Internet from the IT Crowd, meaning a black box kept on top of Big Ben. However, I think you have more logical explanations here. i thought that was a riot :)

delete reply brendainmad wrote on Mar 27, '10 I love the definition of the Internet from the IT Crowd, meaning a black box kept on top of Big Ben. However, I think you have more logical explanations here.

delete reply veryfrank wrote on Mar 27, '10 forgetmenot525 said which must mean that every thing we write, in theory, would be accessible by our descendants thousands of years from now. That's up for debate, what is sent is a series of mathematical codes that are then deciphered by the receiving computer and become pictures and words again. The codes still exist as signals or waves, with or without the computer to do the physical translation. Where are the signals/waves, they are out there somewhere, they are not captured and held or locked-in by the receiving computer, they can't be destroyed. A change to the original transmission would produce a new set of mathematical codes and signals, the original doesn't change or just go away. There is a distinction between the energy to transmit an image and the resultant image, they are two different things.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 ahhhhh big sigh...............ok i'm beginning to get the mechanics of it all, but I have to admit there are still aspects of the internet that to me, break with previously understood definitions of 'reality', or existence or similar things. But thank you people for your input :-)

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 think of it this way i am on land and you are on an island across a bay i am sending you morse code signals with a flashlight i turn on and off the switch which sends bursts of light your way this light is moving in waves at the speed of light the wavelengths hit you and you see them and make out what i am sending (wow! ~ i didn't know you knew morse code) but the waves don't stop there someone behind you can see it too but sooner or later the waves disperse if i lit a flashlight in ohio you can not see it were you are :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 kathyinozarks said interesting-too "deep" for me lol I just enjoy all my friends here and learn from the internet and that is a very wise attitude Kathy, there's a lot to be said for 'just' enjoying things without too many questions.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 ok so if the energy was distributed not destroyed it would no longer be in the form of internet communications but in the form of light or sound some other energy force. Which makes a lot more sense than it remaining with us as an internet communication for all eternity. Because if it did the internet would be infinite and nothing in our reality is infinite, and if the internet was...........it really would be a different sort of existence.

delete reply kathyinozarks wrote on Mar 27, '10 interesting-too "deep" for me lol I just enjoy all my friends here and learn from the internet

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10, edited on Mar 27, '10 check the first part of this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet the internet is a collective of stations that receive and forward your info what they talk about things sent that can be accessed by others even though you delete it it means the message you just sent went through many stations to get it me those places will have a record of it on their devices but if those devices are destroyed so is the info on them what you sent is not just circling the globe forever :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 veryfrank said If Shakespeare had been on the Internet and been transmitted, it would still be around today, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away, but out there some where. which must mean that every thing we write, in theory, would be accessible by our descendants thousands of years from now.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 nemo4sun said he information still has to be stored somewhere on a devise (computer, cell phone etc)) the internet is just the connections between devises like our old 360 posts they are gone now because the computers they were stored on no longer exist Hmmm i was wondering about this, I thought, just as Frank said, once out there on the internet, it stays on the internet, which makes me wonder how much stuff the internet can store. I know what you mean about not being able to access it because 360 doesn't exist, but our not being able to access it doesn't mean its not there,

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10, edited on Mar 27, '10 the waves continue to travel the waves sent to a satellite not in a circle but traveling outward on but i would think they would become corrupt past a point like martians watching broadcast re-runs of "i love lucy" the broadcast waves may still be traveling out but are they usable? and they would have to come to a receiver that could translate it

delete reply veryfrank wrote on Mar 27, '10, edited on Mar 27, '10 If Shakespeare had been on the Internet and been transmitted, it would still be around today, perhaps in a galaxy far, far away, but out there some where. The light that we see from stars on a given night, may have been generated thousands, perhaps millions, of years ago and has traveled at light speed and take that long to get here. The point is that the original energy was disbursed, but not destroyed. If some device today could read what was transmitted, I believe that it would still be around. That is like the signals and pictures that we sent into space 40 years ago.

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 i may be wrong on this the information still has to be stored somewhere on a devise (computer, cell phone etc)) the internet is just the connections between devises like our old 360 posts they are gone now because the computers they were stored on no longer exist :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10, edited on Mar 27, '10 hmmmmm ok.............guess one of the problems I have with this is that it is so big. In my conversation with my daughter we asked the question; if the Internet were around 500 years ago, and Shakespeare used it, would we still be able to see what he wrote??, cos..................if that were the case, the amount of stuff stored on the internet over 500 years would be infinite..... does the internet have infinite capability?? cos if it does, its just about the only 'thing' in existence that does have infinity inbuilt. generally speaking infinity is something not experience in the 'real' world.

delete reply veryfrank wrote on Mar 27, '10 Yes, pretty much so, all energy has existence, although not always visible properties. Unfortunately, every stroke/signal that travels from point-to-point will exist forever, one doesn't 'erase' energy, simply disburses it. But you can't wrap it up in a neat little package with a physical existence. It is a label.

Comment deleted at the request of the author.

delete reply artimisia wrote on Mar 27, '10

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 yep ~ much like sunlight :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 ok... Frank and Nemo, when I ask ''what form of existance does the internet have' you are saying it has the form of 'waves' energy waves or microwaves or sound waves..... or similar. And these 'waves' are energy that have no physical form but do have some sort of 'real' existance??

delete reply artimisia wrote on Mar 27, '10 one of the difference between tv, radio AND THE INTERNET is that ordinary people communicate in real time through wires or waves...a bit like the telphone but everything visual and heard can be saved

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 the signals are wavelengths you can not see like the signal from your tv remote to your tv or our voices traveling if we were on the phone :)

delete reply veryfrank wrote on Mar 27, '10 Empirical simply implies something derived or guided from or by experience or experiment. The issue doesn't have to have physical form, much as radio waves. The Internet is a series of communications connections, essentially computer-to-server-to-server-to-computer. The starting, midway and ending points have a physical existence, the transmission in between is simply energy. Not unlike the physical existence of a television studio and then the receiving television set, with nothing empirical in between. Does the Internet have an actual physical home? The answer is no, it is a collective identity. Does the Universe have an empirical 'home'?

delete reply nemo4sun wrote on Mar 27, '10 the internet is many forms in one system it is data entered into a electronic devise like me typing this right now it is entered into my ip port then send digitally through my cable tv wire to a station that send them as (i believe) microwave signals up to a satellite in space then broadcast back down to a station near you then you access them from there the internet is the network of stations that broadcasts and receives those signals :)

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 artimisia said will this help ? thank you :-) it helps a great deal, how appropriate

delete reply artimisia wrote on Mar 27, '10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDbyYGrswtg will this help ?

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 depends on exactly what you mean. The nature of language and how it works has been the subject of philosophical debate for centuries but most people who debate the nature of language seem to agree that, even if the thought processes are not actually understood, the mechanics of brain activity and brain chemistry are (almost) understood. But if you mean does the mechanics that allow us to communicate, be it speech which utilises muscle etc or the written word which uses paper etc..., exist, then yes they do, empirically.

delete reply tesstruhartz wrote on Mar 27, '10 Maybe it is all fake and we are talking to ourselves

delete reply artimisia wrote on Mar 27, '10 does comunication exist it is process and not content ?

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 ohhhh I'm so happy someone takes my question seriously thank you, think away and then get back to me :-)

delete reply simphanee wrote on Mar 27, '10 MOST interesting! I have some thinkin ta do on this one!

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Mar 27, '10 and feeling it is the empirical sense based evidence that need to know it exists

delete reply tesstruhartz wrote on Mar 27, '10, edited on Mar 27, '10 i would say it is energy put to good use. Like electricity you can not see that either , but put your finger in a light socket and you will feel it.