Oct 23, 2011, Multiply, Demonstrations at St Pauls

Demonstrators at St Pauls

Oct 23, '11 7:53 PM for everyone

I don't always agree with this lady,
but today I do

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/columnists/janet-street-porter/editoratlarge-seems-well-use-any-word-today-except-a-word-of-kindness-2374647.html



''Closing St Paul's is beyond belief
When protesters set up camp outside St Paul's Cathedral last week, Giles Fraser, the Canon Chancellor, welcomed his new visitors in an exemplary Christian way. As they've grown in number, he's changed his tune. Visitor numbers and takings at the gift shop and café have plummeted. Now the cathedral has closed – an unthinkable act.
It should open its doors to demonstrators who have the guts to stand up for what they believe in. They may be incoherent and irritating, but they have a right to protest about our society's blatant inequality. If Jesus were alive, he'd be one of the campers. The C of E, with its vast property portfolio, admission fees and souvenirs, has a warped sense of priorities.''

Well said Janet Street Porter

Tags: political

Prev: Sunday Morning Velvet underground
Next: Occupy London, a short film...........

reply edit delete

22 Comments

Add a Comment

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 25, '11, edited on Oct 25, '11 smudge77 said That money he is talking about funds the local food and soup kitchens, I've just heard a pretty good phrase on the radio, someone being interviewed said' in your terrier like zeal you are missing the point''...........I'd like to borrow that phrase for you. You seem so intent on sniping and point scoring you are missing the point. The point is, we are all living under a system which is thoroughly evil and corrupt. The system we live under enables the powerful few to continually exploit the rest of us. Now is the time to stand up and be counted. at the top of my page it says.........''if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem' and never has that phrase been as true as it is today. What I am trying to say is that if the church is worth anything at all in todays society, now is the time for it to show solidarity with the poor, the exploited, the homeless, now is the time to denounce the ''people before profit'' mentality. The argument about 'soup kitchens' etc is very reminiscent of the common American argument that goes '' taking my money to pay for the poor is theft but I give to charity. People don't want charity. A decent home, an income sufficient to live on, an education, health care, these are all rights that every one deserves. To expect some one to go cap in hand asking for charity for those basic requirements is criminal. In your response not once have you acknowledged any of this or indicated in any way that you are against a system whose objective is to make as much profit as possible for the few with no regard to the consequence. Like I said...........if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem, and no amount of 'terrier like zeal', will make any of your point scoring any more valid.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 25, '11 bennett1 said I could not have said it better myself. thank you, but actually I think you could, you are very good with words.

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Oct 24, '11 forgetmenot525 said sure we can all give, give give, but until the system changes, its a bottomless pit. There is no point is continually 'giving' while also aiding and abetting the system that causes the problem. I could not have said it better myself.

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Oct 24, '11 smudge77 said because, ironically, they ARE the rich and powerful ones being able to afford those No, I own a mobile device and I can assure you I am not the rich and powerful. The Church, whether it be the Catholic Church or Chruch of England or any other, may do good work for the poor, but actually work to keep in place the institutions which perpetuate poverty. It does no good to operate a soup kitchen if you donate to politicians who vote against a minimum wage or who send jobs to slave factories abroad.

delete reply smudge77 wrote on Oct 24, '11 forgetmenot525 said selling blackberries..........?? why? are protesters somehow less deserving of certain belongings than other people? are only the rich and powerful entitled to own this type of device? because, ironically, they ARE the rich and powerful ones being able to afford those, and being able to have time off work, or camp out for days if they unemployed and therefore not ''be available for work'' [as job seekers allowance says they should be], and rich in comparison with those people who St. Paul's people/volunteers help [the homeless etc], for whom the funds are now drying up because of the blockages

delete reply smudge77 wrote on Oct 24, '11 forgetmenot525 said what have church buildings got to do with a protest against a corrupt and exploitative system?? um, the article says, doesn't it and your contact, unsupervisedmale, said also "That money he is talking about funds the local food and soup kitchens, The reporter did a lousy job of reporting, those funds are used in various local and nationwide charities.." I'm not sure what bit of info I need to add to connect this up - to make it clearer - but the money [entrance fee] is not used as profit but ploughed back into what they do

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 24, '11 bennett1 said Yes, many of us do. We are also working to alleviate the root cause of poverty, which is the concentration of the wealth in the hands of a very few and, believe me, they are not working to alleviate poverty. They scarcely know it exists. exactly.............its the same argument as the one that goes give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, give him a boat and a net and you feed him for life.............sure we can all give, give give, but until the system changes, its a bottomless pit. There is no point is continually 'giving' while also aiding and abetting the system that causes the problem.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 24, '11 smudge77 said maybe the protesters could do something practical to alleviate poverty? eh? (I would take more notice of them then...they could sell their blackberrys maybe to help, also) the protesters are doing the most practical thing possible to alleviate poverty, trying to destroy the system that causes it. what have church buildings got to do with a protest against a corrupt and exploitative system?? selling blackberries..........?? why? are protesters somehow less deserving of certain belongings than other people? are only the rich and powerful entitled to own this type of device? .

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 24, '11 unsupervisedmale said That money he is talking about funds the local food and soup kitchens, The reporter did a lousy job of reporting, those funds are used in various local and nationwide charities, jyst saying this article was a hit piece, why isnt anyone commenting on the 500,000 nest egg the occupy wallstreet has in 7 weeks and now only the elite of the group has access to those funds..........hmmmmm I'm not actually sure what you mean or what relevance this comment has to the quote, I do know the social/political/ economic system we are all forced to live under has enabled an elite few to own the vast majority of wealth and earn the vast majority of income. I also know that same system is riddled with injustice and inequality, its corrupt to the core and no amount of adjustments to this failed system is going to make it any better.........its not so much broken and inappropriate to the needs of the people. This system not only condones but encourages financial institutions to entice poor desperate people into taking out loans with interest rates so high they should be illegal, while allowing the rich and powerful to make more and more money from other peoples misery. The same system exploits workers in developing countries by driving down the price paid by western multinationals for crops and raw goods. This is a system that not only keeps the poor in the west poor...........it makes the worlds poor even poorer................ which is why I think, given the choice between earning cash in the short term or, aiming to change an exploitative and corrupt system in the long term.............they made the wrong choice. St Pauls is the public face of christianity in this country, it should be aligning itself with the fight against poverty, corruption and inequality not worrying about lost income.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 24, '11 veryfrank said If it works like it does in the US, those vast holdings are tax-free and no one is held accountable for where the money comes from or how it is used I don't think the law is exactly the same here as there but I am sure there are similarities. I do know the Catholic Church and the Church of England are very wealthy organisations. In fairness, soup kitchens, christmas shelters for the homeless etc are often run by churches. But St Pauls is THE face of the C of E in this country and the point of this comment, in the context of this situation, was that given a choice between continuing to make revenue in the short term ( regardless of the 'good causes' that cash may have been used for) and undermining a political/economic system that causes and perpetuates inequality and poverty..........they chose the cash.............as far as I can see.............wrong choice, no doubt about it.

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 24, '11 bennett1 said Somebody asked me, as a trivia question, who was the single biggest landowner in the city of New York. Donald Trump is not even close. It is the Catholic Church. Jesus would weep. Occupy!! not surprised in the least, this occupation is pretty big now and its beginning to look like a permanent settlement.

delete reply brendainmad wrote on Oct 24, '11 And I like Bennett's comment too!

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Oct 24, '11 smudge77 said maybe the protesters could do something practical to alleviate poverty? Yes, many of us do. We are also working to alleviate the root cause of poverty, which is the concentration of the wealth in the hands of a very few and, believe me, they are not working to alleviate poverty. They scarcely know it exists.

delete reply smudge77 wrote on Oct 24, '11, edited on Oct 24, '11 unsupervisedmale said That money he is talking about funds the local food and soup kitchens yes - I actually do not like church buildings and the money needed for their upkeep, and, strangely, it often seems to be non believers who ''culturally appreciate architecture'' who are the first to object if the C of E wanted to sell off these burdens round their necks but at least some are putting them to good practical use 7 days a week, as is St. Martins in the Bullring in my own city let the government [i.e. people's taxes] replace that missing funding then no? detail is important - more than bias - and I have bias against expensive religious buildings - strong bias against them for many many reasons but I *get* what some are trying to do and how difficult it is for them maybe the protesters could do something practical to alleviate poverty? eh? (I would take more notice of them then...they could sell their blackberrys maybe to help, also) like join in with feeding and clothing London's homeless as many Christians are doing, from St. Paul's and other London churches.

delete reply unsupervisedmale wrote on Oct 23, '11 That money he is talking about funds the local food and soup kitchens, The reporter did a lousy job of reporting, those funds are used in various local and nationwide charities, jyst saying this article was a hit piece, why isnt anyone commenting on the 500,000 nest egg the occupy wallstreet has in 7 weeks and now only the elite of the group has access to those funds..........hmmmmm

delete reply veryfrank wrote on Oct 23, '11 forgetmenot525 said C of E, with its vast property portfolio, admission fees and souvenirs, has a warped sense of priorities.'' If it works like it does in the US, those vast holdings are tax-free and no one is held accountable for where the money comes from or how it is used. The government subsidizes some of the wealthiest 'corporations' in the country, because the do charitable work??? Give me a break, that is probably the biggest hustle for the last 2,000 years.

delete reply bennett1 wrote on Oct 23, '11 Somebody asked me, as a trivia question, who was the single biggest landowner in the city of New York. Donald Trump is not even close. It is the Catholic Church. Jesus would weep. Occupy!!

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 23, '11 The C of E is one of the wealthiest institutions in the country today, but apparently the loss of revenue is more important to the C of E than the injustices in our society...........hmmmmmmmmmm maybe the clue is ...'wealthiest institutions in the country'', no one gets that wealthy by caring about the poverty of others

delete reply tismek wrote on Oct 23, '11 Ahh.. sorry didnt get round to reading the link yet! :o) Blummin good story babes!

edit delete reply forgetmenot525 wrote on Oct 23, '11, edited on Oct 23, '11 tismek said OK this article doesn't cover the whole story. Right at the end of the news today the truth came out. The Cathedral is losing some £16,000 a day because of the protesters. It all comes down to money. Now isn't that ironic? that was exactly her point............. ''If Jesus were alive, he'd be one of the campers. The C of E, with its vast property portfolio, admission fees and souvenirs, has a warped sense of priorities.''

delete reply tismek wrote on Oct 23, '11 http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2011/10/occupy-protesters-force-st-pauls-cathedral-to-close/

delete reply tismek wrote on Oct 23, '11 OK this article doesn't cover the whole story. Right at the end of the news today the truth came out. The Cathedral is losing some £16,000 a day because of the protesters. It all comes down to money. Now isn't that ironic? :o)